Winds of Change

Discussions of the arcane symbols of Tarot and other decks
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Symbols appear on each and every tarot card - visual signs that convey meaning. Some of them are highly individual and personal, others time-honored and traditional. Some are easy to understand, others difficult and multivalent. In this forum, we want to study symbols from different decks, traditions and cultures together using books, websites, lwbs and our own intuition.
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kyan
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Re: Winds of Change

Post by kyan » 08 Feb 2018, 12:12

barleywine, i’m just beginning to see the relationship of the numbers and the progression of numbers in the deck, pulling together the meaning of each number and combining them with the basic meaning of each suit. basic stuff. also, the progression in the major arcana, beginning and ending with the fool. the kabbalah concepts you mention above do sound helpful.

in your blog post you say this:

“Often the direction the Knight is facing will reveal whether the situation is advancing into the future or is still focused on rehabilitating the past.”

i wonder how the all new decks coming out adhere to this because they’re so independently crafted. i suppose it doesn’t make much difference which way they are facing in the deck (wands and swords knights facing left, cups and coins facing right in RWS) as long as you note their orientation in a reading, but some decks don’t have knights facing either way, they may be just looking at the viewer straight on, orntheure not even an actual knight at all, they could be a turtle or a mushroom. i guess what i’m saying is that i feel traditional meaning is lost in some of the newer less traditional decks these days. i can see why a tarotist would stick with one or two “good” decks when they’re serious about a reading.

also, i notice the orientation of figures is stressed more in lenormand readings, where cards seem to be read with more importance on succession and stacks. i say this because so many tarot cards, especially majors, seem to be facing the viewer head on, so the directional aspect isn’t as important.

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Barleywine
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Re: Winds of Change

Post by Barleywine » 08 Feb 2018, 15:31

kyan wrote:
08 Feb 2018, 12:12
barleywine, i’m just beginning to see the relationship of the numbers and the progression of numbers in the deck, pulling together the meaning of each number and combining them with the basic meaning of each suit. basic stuff. also, the progression in the major arcana, beginning and ending with the fool. the kabbalah concepts you mention above do sound helpful.

in your blog post you say this:

“Often the direction the Knight is facing will reveal whether the situation is advancing into the future or is still focused on rehabilitating the past.”

i wonder how the all new decks coming out adhere to this because they’re so independently crafted. i suppose it doesn’t make much difference which way they are facing in the deck (wands and swords knights facing left, cups and coins facing right in RWS) as long as you note their orientation in a reading, but some decks don’t have knights facing either way, they may be just looking at the viewer straight on, orntheure not even an actual knight at all, they could be a turtle or a mushroom. i guess what i’m saying is that i feel traditional meaning is lost in some of the newer less traditional decks these days. i can see why a tarotist would stick with one or two “good” decks when they’re serious about a reading.

also, i notice the orientation of figures is stressed more in lenormand readings, where cards seem to be read with more importance on succession and stacks. i say this because so many tarot cards, especially majors, seem to be facing the viewer head on, so the directional aspect isn’t as important.
This comes partially from a section of the Golden Dawn's Liber T that talks about something or someone "coming or going" in the matter. If the mounted figure (in GD it's the King) is facing against the flow of the reading (that is, upstream toward the previous cards), it shows something entering the matter by overtaking the querent, who turns to meet it, and if the mounted figure is facing in the same direction as the flow of the cards (that is, downstream away from the previous cards) something or someone is departing the situation, leaving the querent's sphere of influence. The other idea is the standard one that "right" means future and "left" means past. Also, reversal will change the facing of the Knight while also complicating the picture. One observation in the esoteric literature that comes from Paul Foster Case's material on the Opening of the Key spread is that if a figure on a court card is facing straight out, assume it is facing left for the purposes of the reading. This is because the spread is structured on a right-to-left assumption derived from the way Hebrew is read. I also use other clues like which way the figure is holding the "active" implement, sword, wand, cup or disk, and just go with that implied direction. I took a look at the RWS a while ago, and the only court card that faces straight out is the King of Swords (all the others have at least a turned head), and he is holding his sword toward the observer's left side, so I would visualize him turning his body in that direction (toward his sword hand).

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Barleywine
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Re: Winds of Change

Post by Barleywine » 08 Feb 2018, 16:09

Here's something else I just wrote based on Nemia's observations.

https://parsifalswheeldivination.com/20 ... -of-light/

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kyan
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Re: Winds of Change

Post by kyan » 08 Feb 2018, 17:04

i tried finding a pic of what the OOTK spread looks like but couldn’t really find anything so it must be quite layered and complicated. from what i understand it’s a system of 5 spreads requiring two reading skills. wow.

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kyan
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Re: Winds of Change

Post by kyan » 08 Feb 2018, 17:13

Barleywine wrote:
08 Feb 2018, 16:09
Here's something else I just wrote based on Nemia's observations.

https://parsifalswheeldivination.com/20 ... -of-light/
just read your post and saw the illustration/layout... it’s going to be a while before that penny of realization drops for me. :icon_rolleyes:

the tree diagram looks great tho. it reminds me of a garden layout with connecting pathways. i suppose people actually have laid vegetable or flower beds following that pattern.

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Barleywine
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Re: Winds of Change

Post by Barleywine » 08 Feb 2018, 17:34

kyan wrote:
08 Feb 2018, 17:04
i tried finding a pic of what the OOTK spread looks like but couldn’t really find anything so it must be quite layered and complicated. from what i understand it’s a system of 5 spreads requiring two reading skills. wow.
There are five "operations," each one with three discrete sub-operations (find and read the significator, count and make a story, pair and make a story). There are three follow-up astrological operations and one Tree of Life operation in addition to the main one. The members of the order usually only did the first operation since the whole thing can take a couple of days to do right. I've only ever done it once; I just use the first step of the first operation as a preliminary to my Celtic Cross spread to get a first look at the element of interest for the reading and let the rest go.

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Nemia
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Re: Winds of Change

Post by Nemia » 08 Feb 2018, 17:42

Barleywine, you wrote it so beautifully and clearly in your blogpost. I'll add here a link to what I wrote some time ago here on ET about the Tree of Life, winding and wording about ;-)

I've never done the OOTK, I don't feel ready for it.... or am I just too lazy? It's such a complicated process.

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kyan
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Re: Winds of Change

Post by kyan » 08 Feb 2018, 17:55

oh, here i was thinking that you two did these kind of mega-spreads all the time... it’s a relief to know that it can be complicated and/or time-consuming for you too!

the aspect of reading the cards from right to left is of interest though, because my mother wrote this way and it was always fascinating to watch her write (and read) in a manner so different from my own.

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Barleywine
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Re: Winds of Change

Post by Barleywine » 08 Feb 2018, 18:04

kyan wrote:
08 Feb 2018, 17:55
oh, here i was thinking that you two did these kind of mega-spreads all the time... it’s a relief to know that it can be complicated and/or time-consuming for you too!

the aspect of reading the cards from right to left is of interest though, because my mother wrote this way and it was always fascinating to watch her write (and read) in a manner so different from my own.
I'm not really at ease with it because it's a case of too many story arcs and way too much information for the average question. As a long-range life-reading spread it would probably work better, but I use the Lenormand GT for that most of the time now.

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Re: Winds of Change

Post by kyan » 08 Feb 2018, 18:44

i too feel more confident with lenormand. i haven’t done a GT yet but i’m getting more and more comfortable with (9 card) 3x3 spreads and (15 card) stacked 5 row card spreads. i don’t pay attention to the suit card designations yet, but i probably should, at least with the court cards.

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