Nemia would have liked to change the Chaldean order

Discussions of the arcane symbols of Tarot and other decks
Forum rules
Symbols appear on each and every tarot card - visual signs that convey meaning. Some of them are highly individual and personal, others time-honored and traditional. Some are easy to understand, others difficult and multivalent. In this forum, we want to study symbols from different decks, traditions and cultures together using books, websites, lwbs and our own intuition.
Post Reply
User avatar
Nemia
Global Moderator
Posts: 1673
Joined: 05 Jul 2017, 05:02
Location: between the mountains and the sea
Contact:

Nemia would have liked to change the Chaldean order

Post by Nemia » 01 Oct 2017, 16:49

Now doesn't this sound great! Change the Chaldean order, I mean how old is it anway? 3000 years, 4000 years, whatever? And throw esoteric history to the dustbin of history!

No no no, it's not that bad. But while pondering my tarot calendar, I noticed something. Since nobody reads my calendar anyway, I want to repeat my thoughts here. I'm ONLY talking about the Chaldean order as far as it relates to the tarot minor decans.

In the Chaldean order the way it is superimposed on the structure of the cards, there is a problem. I feel it now that I live under its spell for nearly half a year. We go down from far-away, distant, slow, leaden Saturn. We meet radiant, jovial Jupiter (Jove) on the way, red, wild Mars, our radiant, warming Sun, gorgeous Venus, fast-moving Mercury and then the Moon - it feels nearly intimate after this journey!

And then we are catapulted back again to Saturn. Of course, it's an ancient pattern and I won't change it - but if I could, I'd climb gently back from Moon to Mercury, to Venus etc - the whole ladder up again, like we do in the Seven Pentacles of the Wild Unknown.

I want to go down but also up. The divine light drips down the Tree of Life until it reaches us in Malkuth, and we can try to go up. Okay, I shouldn't have brought in the Tree, we can't hope to reach the supernal triangle, and I'll be happy to reach Yesod! (and stay there - Yesod...)

Okay, so scratch that comparison.

But still, I'd like to know what would happen if I went up and down and up again for a whole year.

Okay, I can tell you. Do you know something? It would work perfectly. Just perfectly.

I started with the first Saturn decan in the zodiac, that's the 3rd decan of Taurus.

Wow, that's amazing. We wouldn't even have the seam of Aries-Aries.

We'd just go up and down the planetary ladder.

I'll make tables and add them. The way the decans work now has one great beauty - you never get the same constellation twice. If you put the minors related to every planet on the Tree of Life, you'll never get the same pattern. No repetitions.

Let's say for Venus, we have: 2 cups, 4 wands, 5 swords, 7 cups, 9 disks. That's a unique constellation on the Tree of Life: Bina, Chessed, Gvura, Netzach and Yesod.

For Jupiter, we have: 2 disks, 4 swords, 6 wands, 8 swords, 9 cups. That's Bina, Chessed, Tif'eret, Hod and Yesod.

And I didn't check it but I'm sure that for each planet, we have minors from EACH suit.

So this is lovely and full of variation. I have no idea whether one could say the same for my arrangement, but I will find out.

I'm sure the serious scholars will just shake their heads but hey, it's just a game of thought, a Gedankenspiel. Who was the first clever guy who connected the Chaldean order of the decans with the minors? Didn't feel the harsh cut between Moon and back to Saturn again? And the awkwardness of the 3rd decan of Pisces and 1st decan of Aries, both ruled by Mars? Hey, can't we fix that?

I'll make my list and come back :-)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar
Barleywine
Posts: 465
Joined: 15 Aug 2017, 07:19
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Contact:

Re: Nemia wants to change the Chaldean order

Post by Barleywine » 01 Oct 2017, 17:13

In studying traditional astrology, I learned a bit about this. With the classical seven-planet rulerships, if you start from Cancer - the Moon's sign - and go clockwise, you hit Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. If you start from Leo - the Sun's sign - and go counter-clockwise, you hit Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. It's a fairly elegant system. The problem the Golden Dawn had was that there are 36 decans but only five sets of seven planets will fit into the scheme. Their solution - doubling up on Mars at the end, was anything but elegant (although I do use it since it gives the Queen of Wands at the end of Pisces at least a little zip).

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar
Nemia
Global Moderator
Posts: 1673
Joined: 05 Jul 2017, 05:02
Location: between the mountains and the sea
Contact:

Re: Nemia wants to change the Chaldean order

Post by Nemia » 01 Oct 2017, 17:16

It does, and I should have known that you know something about it :-)

I tried it with two variations - one start with Saturn in the first decan Saturn rules now (just as anchor when I tried it), and then starting with Saturn on the 1st decan of Aries.

Now do you know what other elegant little thing this gives us? You have the energy of the planet once going up, and once going down.

Isn't that pretty? Like the waxing and waning moon - like the angels on Jacob's ladder - going up and down.

Oh, I'm quite in love with that idea :-)

Image

Oh no, I'm not. It would mean that Saturn has only Wands decans...

You pay for elegance in one quarter with monotony in another quarter. The decans would be full of repeats - there would be planets with only one or two elements/suits, and there would be cards crowding on the sephiroth. What a pity. I guess people checked it out before me and saw it doesn't work.

Still, I like the idea of going up the ladder and down again. :-)

But hey, there's a third version I didn't check yet - if I take the beautiful Chaldean star of the weekdays as model, maybe that would solve my problem? The week puts the planets into the following order: Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn, Sun. And if I use that order, I don't climb up or down, I never change direction, I just flow along this wonderful seven pointed star....

What do you say to that?

Ha, another stupid idea. Anyone but me would have seen immediately that if we start with Moon in the 1st decan of Aries, then we also end up with Moon in the last decan of Pisces. And then we simply exchanged the double Mars with a double Moon and did nothing.

Naaa, it doesn't work out and I'll crawl back to Crowley... but I had my fun and can enjoy the decan system again. Even if I have to put on my seven mile boots tomorrow and jump up to Saturn again to start the whole sequence again... after all, the same happens when we finish with the Ten and go back to Two again.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar
Barleywine
Posts: 465
Joined: 15 Aug 2017, 07:19
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Contact:

Re: Nemia wants to change the Chaldean order

Post by Barleywine » 01 Oct 2017, 17:38

I'd like to see you extrapolate it over 12 months/52 weeks and see what kind of a compromise you have to make at the end, since 7 doesn't divide equally into 365.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar
Nemia
Global Moderator
Posts: 1673
Joined: 05 Jul 2017, 05:02
Location: between the mountains and the sea
Contact:

Re: Nemia would have liked to change the Chaldean order

Post by Nemia » 01 Oct 2017, 17:38

You know I can't do it :icon_cry:

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar
Michael Sternbach
Site Admin
Posts: 558
Joined: 06 Jul 2017, 06:13

Re: Nemia wants to change the Chaldean order

Post by Michael Sternbach » 01 Oct 2017, 19:56

Barleywine wrote:
01 Oct 2017, 17:13
In studying traditional astrology, I learned a bit about this. With the classical seven-planet rulerships, if you start from Cancer - the Moon's sign - and go clockwise, you hit Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. If you start from Leo - the Sun's sign - and go counter-clockwise, you hit Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. It's a fairly elegant system. The problem the Golden Dawn had was that there are 36 decans but only five sets of seven planets will fit into the scheme. Their solution - doubling up on Mars at the end, was anything but elegant (although I do use it since it gives the Queen of Wands at the end of Pisces at least a little zip).
Doubling up on Mars isn't a Golden Dawn idea though. It dates back to Teucros the Babylonian (probably first century AD). However, this particular system of decans doesn't seem to have been in wide use until the GD revived it for its own purposes.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar
2dogs
Global Moderator
Posts: 876
Joined: 05 Jul 2017, 11:05

Re: Nemia wants to change the Chaldean order

Post by 2dogs » 03 Oct 2017, 00:54

Michael Sternbach wrote:
01 Oct 2017, 19:56
Barleywine wrote:
01 Oct 2017, 17:13
In studying traditional astrology, I learned a bit about this. With the classical seven-planet rulerships, if you start from Cancer - the Moon's sign - and go clockwise, you hit Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. If you start from Leo - the Sun's sign - and go counter-clockwise, you hit Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. It's a fairly elegant system. The problem the Golden Dawn had was that there are 36 decans but only five sets of seven planets will fit into the scheme. Their solution - doubling up on Mars at the end, was anything but elegant (although I do use it since it gives the Queen of Wands at the end of Pisces at least a little zip).
Doubling up on Mars isn't a Golden Dawn idea though. It dates back to Teucros the Babylonian (probably first century AD). However, this particular system of decans doesn't seem to have been in wide use until the GD revived it for its own purposes.
Having been born in the third decan of Pisces I really think it should have a special exception of its own, like the Fool :icon_mrgreen: .
If the Lord Almighty had consulted me before embarking on creation thus, I should have recommended something simpler. Alfonso X (the Wise)

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

Post Reply

Return to “History & Symbolism”