Simple Table of Affinities and Correspondences

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Symbols appear on each and every tarot card - visual signs that convey meaning. Some of them are highly individual and personal, others time-honored and traditional. Some are easy to understand, others difficult and multivalent. In this forum, we want to study symbols from different decks, traditions and cultures together using books, websites, lwbs and our own intuition.
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Michael Sternbach
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Re: Simple Table of Affinities and Correspondences

Post by Michael Sternbach » 17 Oct 2017, 06:37

Barleywine wrote:
16 Oct 2017, 18:56
Michael Sternbach wrote:
16 Oct 2017, 15:08
Looking at your lists, I see that you put Jupiter in Fire, Venus in Earth. While this reflects some of their sign rulerships, it is based on a wide spread misconception. In classical astrology, the planets represent the elements this way:

Mars = Fire
Venus = Water
Jupiter = Air
Saturn = Earth
Quintessence = Mercury

The GD attributed elements to the "planetary" Trump cards according to this scheme.
Unfortunately, in neither tarot trumps nor in astrological rulerships do you get a "Water" option for Venus, only Earth and Air, and no "Air" option for Jupiter, only Fire and Water. I'm going strictly with planetary rulerships here, and made a decision between the two options, taking the first sign of rulership in the sequence as the primary. Regarding Jupiter, I've seen it formally called Fire, Air and Water at various places in the classical literature. It's just a judgment call that works in my own system of interpretation, and is subject to revision. (I'm well-aware of Lilly's attributions: he cites the temperament of Venus as "airy and watery" and that of Jupiter as "airy," but he stays with the classical rulerships. Venus is exalted in a Water sign, but then so is Jupiter.)
You are obviously mixing up the elementary attributes of the signs with those of the planets they are ruled by. They are not the same.

The elementary attributions of the planets are suggested already in Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, where he calls Jupiter "warm and moist", which makes this planet akin to Air, as per the Aristotelian system of elements and their constituting qualities (or proto-elements). They have been fully spelled out at the latest in Raymond Lull's universal system of correspondences, where the planets are used pretty much interchangeably with the elements.

This system was the one accepted by almost all ancient, medieval and Renaissance astrologers in East and West. The only appreciable ambiguity that comes to mind concerns Mercury, which is sometimes seen as being of more of a Quintessential nature, in other sources however as more of an Earthy character. Then again, Mercury is always the odd ball in the traditional texts!

These correspondences were also received in the system of bodily humours of Galenian medicine, where, e.g., Yellow Bile = Jupiter = Air.

Lilly knew this system for sure. But it was never intended as an alternative to the classical rulerships. So yes, Jupiter belongs to Air, yet he rules a Fire sign and a Water sign. <shrug>

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Re: Simple Table of Affinities and Correspondences

Post by Barleywine » 17 Oct 2017, 06:56

Michael Sternbach wrote:
17 Oct 2017, 06:37
Barleywine wrote:
16 Oct 2017, 18:56
Michael Sternbach wrote:
16 Oct 2017, 15:08
Looking at your lists, I see that you put Jupiter in Fire, Venus in Earth. While this reflects some of their sign rulerships, it is based on a wide spread misconception. In classical astrology, the planets represent the elements this way:

Mars = Fire
Venus = Water
Jupiter = Air
Saturn = Earth
Quintessence = Mercury

The GD attributed elements to the "planetary" Trump cards according to this scheme.
Unfortunately, in neither tarot trumps nor in astrological rulerships do you get a "Water" option for Venus, only Earth and Air, and no "Air" option for Jupiter, only Fire and Water. I'm going strictly with planetary rulerships here, and made a decision between the two options, taking the first sign of rulership in the sequence as the primary. Regarding Jupiter, I've seen it formally called Fire, Air and Water at various places in the classical literature. It's just a judgment call that works in my own system of interpretation, and is subject to revision. (I'm well-aware of Lilly's attributions: he cites the temperament of Venus as "airy and watery" and that of Jupiter as "airy," but he stays with the classical rulerships. Venus is exalted in a Water sign, but then so is Jupiter.)
You are obviously mixing up the elementary attributes of the signs with those of the planets they are ruled by. They are not the same.

The elementary attributions of the planets are suggested already in Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, where he calls Jupiter "warm and moist", which makes this planet akin to Air, as per the Aristotelian system of elements and their constituting qualities (or proto-elements). They have been fully spelled out at the latest in Raymond Lull's universal system of correspondences, where the planets are used pretty much interchangeably with the elements.

This system was the one accepted by almost all ancient, medieval and Renaissance astrologers in East and West. The only appreciable ambiguity that comes to mind concerns Mercury, which is sometimes seen as being of more of a Quintessential nature, in other sources however as more of an Earthy character. Then again, Mercury is always the odd ball in the traditional texts!

These correspondences were also received in the system of bodily humours of Galenian medicine, where, e.g., yellow gall = Jupiter = Air.

Lilly knew this system for sure. But it was never intended as an alternative to the classical rulerships. So yes, Jupiter belongs to Air, yet he rules a Fire sign and a Water sign. <shrug>
Not so much mixing them up as trying to come to grips with Lilly's statements in Christian Astrology. In reading that, I had to create this diagram (which I'm not entirely happy with yet) in order to sort it out. I should probably have titled this "Temperaments" instead of "Humours." Assigning elements according to the signs ruled by the planets in my model has always been a convenience more than anything else. I'll be interested to see if you can find the Golden Dawn reference for assigning elements to the trump cards.

ETA: I just realized I have a second version of the diagram, so I included both of them.

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Re: Simple Table of Affinities and Correspondences

Post by Michael Sternbach » 17 Oct 2017, 20:06

Barleywine wrote:
17 Oct 2017, 06:56
Michael Sternbach wrote:
17 Oct 2017, 06:37
Barleywine wrote:
16 Oct 2017, 18:56


Unfortunately, in neither tarot trumps nor in astrological rulerships do you get a "Water" option for Venus, only Earth and Air, and no "Air" option for Jupiter, only Fire and Water. I'm going strictly with planetary rulerships here, and made a decision between the two options, taking the first sign of rulership in the sequence as the primary. Regarding Jupiter, I've seen it formally called Fire, Air and Water at various places in the classical literature. It's just a judgment call that works in my own system of interpretation, and is subject to revision. (I'm well-aware of Lilly's attributions: he cites the temperament of Venus as "airy and watery" and that of Jupiter as "airy," but he stays with the classical rulerships. Venus is exalted in a Water sign, but then so is Jupiter.)
You are obviously mixing up the elementary attributes of the signs with those of the planets they are ruled by. They are not the same.

The elementary attributions of the planets are suggested already in Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, where he calls Jupiter "warm and moist", which makes this planet akin to Air, as per the Aristotelian system of elements and their constituting qualities (or proto-elements). They have been fully spelled out at the latest in Raymond Lull's universal system of correspondences, where the planets are used pretty much interchangeably with the elements.

This system was the one accepted by almost all ancient, medieval and Renaissance astrologers in East and West. The only appreciable ambiguity that comes to mind concerns Mercury, which is sometimes seen as being of more of a Quintessential nature, in other sources however as more of an Earthy character. Then again, Mercury is always the odd ball in the traditional texts!

These correspondences were also received in the system of bodily humours of Galenian medicine, where, e.g., yellow gall = Jupiter = Air.

Lilly knew this system for sure. But it was never intended as an alternative to the classical rulerships. So yes, Jupiter belongs to Air, yet he rules a Fire sign and a Water sign. <shrug>
Not so much mixing them up as trying to come to grips with Lilly's statements in Christian Astrology. In reading that, I had to create this diagram (which I'm not entirely happy with yet) in order to sort it out. I should probably have titled this "Temperaments" instead of "Humours." Assigning elements according to the signs ruled by the planets in my model has always been a convenience more than anything else. I'll be interested to see if you can find the Golden Dawn reference for assigning elements to the trump cards.

ETA: I just realized I have a second version of the diagram, so I included both of them.

Image

Image
Regarding your diagrams: Hot/Fire is indeed opposite Cold in the Aristotelian scheme, however, the predominantly cold element is Water, not Earth, and it is always opposite Fire on this cross. On the vertical axis, you should have Moist/Air on top, Dry/Earth on the bottom.

I haven't found the original Golden Dawn reference to the elemental attributions of the Trumps yet, however, Paul Hughes-Barlow, who (for all I know) carefully adheres to the GD/AC system, ascribes in "The Tarot and the Magus" Air to The Magus, Water to The Priestess, Water to The Empress, Air to Fortune, Fire to The Tower, Fire to The Sun, and Earth to The Universe.

Anyhow, I will keep looking.

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Re: Simple Table of Affinities and Correspondences

Post by Barleywine » 18 Oct 2017, 07:52

Michael Sternbach wrote:
17 Oct 2017, 06:37
Barleywine wrote:
16 Oct 2017, 18:56
Michael Sternbach wrote:
16 Oct 2017, 15:08
Looking at your lists, I see that you put Jupiter in Fire, Venus in Earth. While this reflects some of their sign rulerships, it is based on a wide spread misconception. In classical astrology, the planets represent the elements this way:

Mars = Fire
Venus = Water
Jupiter = Air
Saturn = Earth
Quintessence = Mercury

The GD attributed elements to the "planetary" Trump cards according to this scheme.
Unfortunately, in neither tarot trumps nor in astrological rulerships do you get a "Water" option for Venus, only Earth and Air, and no "Air" option for Jupiter, only Fire and Water. I'm going strictly with planetary rulerships here, and made a decision between the two options, taking the first sign of rulership in the sequence as the primary. Regarding Jupiter, I've seen it formally called Fire, Air and Water at various places in the classical literature. It's just a judgment call that works in my own system of interpretation, and is subject to revision. (I'm well-aware of Lilly's attributions: he cites the temperament of Venus as "airy and watery" and that of Jupiter as "airy," but he stays with the classical rulerships. Venus is exalted in a Water sign, but then so is Jupiter.)
You are obviously mixing up the elementary attributes of the signs with those of the planets they are ruled by. They are not the same.

The elementary attributions of the planets are suggested already in Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, where he calls Jupiter "warm and moist", which makes this planet akin to Air, as per the Aristotelian system of elements and their constituting qualities (or proto-elements). They have been fully spelled out at the latest in Raymond Lull's universal system of correspondences, where the planets are used pretty much interchangeably with the elements.

This system was the one accepted by almost all ancient, medieval and Renaissance astrologers in East and West. The only appreciable ambiguity that comes to mind concerns Mercury, which is sometimes seen as being of more of a Quintessential nature, in other sources however as more of an Earthy character. Then again, Mercury is always the odd ball in the traditional texts!

These correspondences were also received in the system of bodily humours of Galenian medicine, where, e.g., Yellow Bile = Jupiter = Air.

Lilly knew this system for sure. But it was never intended as an alternative to the classical rulerships. So yes, Jupiter belongs to Air, yet he rules a Fire sign and a Water sign. <shrug>
Thanks for your insights. I'm going to leave this as-is for now since all I'm trying to do is get back from a planet to a sign and then an element, similar to the way Paul Foster Case did in this table (even if he did use the modern planets). With dual-rulership signs, I'm just using the one that appeals most to my astrological sensibilities. My only purpose in even doing this is to "bin" the deck so I can shrink it down in a coherent manner for reading in much the same way the First Operation of the OotK does, but with a more reasoned rather than random methodology. It's all just experimental anyway, nothing I'm suggesting is gospel. Since I'm not trying to probe the classical approach to planetary temperaments, I think we're done here (for now, I plan to study all of this more).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nhxmr12w0buyr ... .pdf?raw=1

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Re: Simple Table of Affinities and Correspondences

Post by Barleywine » 18 Oct 2017, 07:56

Michael Sternbach wrote:
17 Oct 2017, 20:06
Barleywine wrote:
17 Oct 2017, 06:56
Michael Sternbach wrote:
17 Oct 2017, 06:37


You are obviously mixing up the elementary attributes of the signs with those of the planets they are ruled by. They are not the same.

The elementary attributions of the planets are suggested already in Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, where he calls Jupiter "warm and moist", which makes this planet akin to Air, as per the Aristotelian system of elements and their constituting qualities (or proto-elements). They have been fully spelled out at the latest in Raymond Lull's universal system of correspondences, where the planets are used pretty much interchangeably with the elements.

This system was the one accepted by almost all ancient, medieval and Renaissance astrologers in East and West. The only appreciable ambiguity that comes to mind concerns Mercury, which is sometimes seen as being of more of a Quintessential nature, in other sources however as more of an Earthy character. Then again, Mercury is always the odd ball in the traditional texts!

These correspondences were also received in the system of bodily humours of Galenian medicine, where, e.g., yellow gall = Jupiter = Air.

Lilly knew this system for sure. But it was never intended as an alternative to the classical rulerships. So yes, Jupiter belongs to Air, yet he rules a Fire sign and a Water sign. <shrug>
Not so much mixing them up as trying to come to grips with Lilly's statements in Christian Astrology. In reading that, I had to create this diagram (which I'm not entirely happy with yet) in order to sort it out. I should probably have titled this "Temperaments" instead of "Humours." Assigning elements according to the signs ruled by the planets in my model has always been a convenience more than anything else. I'll be interested to see if you can find the Golden Dawn reference for assigning elements to the trump cards.

ETA: I just realized I have a second version of the diagram, so I included both of them.

Image

Image
Regarding your diagrams: Hot/Fire is indeed opposite Cold in the Aristotelian scheme, however, the predominantly cold element is Water, not Earth, and it is always opposite Fire on this cross. On the vertical axis, you should have Moist/Air on top, Dry/Earth on the bottom.

I haven't found the original Golden Dawn reference to the elemental attributions of the Trumps yet, however, Paul Hughes-Barlow, who (for all I know) carefully adheres to the GD/AC system, ascribes in "TIhe Tarot and the Magus" Air to The Magus, Water to The Priestess, Water to The Empress, Air to Fortune, Fire to The Tower, Fire to The Sun, and Earth to The Universe.

Anyhow, I will keep looking.
Thanks for your efforts. I knew this thing needed more work. I haven't been able to find an attempt by anyone else to put Lilly's words into a diagram like this; all I can find is the signs, so I'll play with it some more at some point. (Haha, I just mis-typed "pint" instead of "point." It may get to that yet.) I'm just now reading Brian Cotnoir's brief book on alchemy, and he gets into a little of this.

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Re: Simple Table of Affinities and Correspondences

Post by Michael Sternbach » 18 Oct 2017, 16:41

This shows the Aristotelian system of the elements:

Image

According to ancient astrological books, the four seasons follow each other in the order given by the circumference of this circle from Spring (Air, moist) to Summer (Fire, hot), Autumn (Earth, dry), and Winter (Water, cold).

This scheme also plays a central role in alchemy ("the rotation of the elements").

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Re: Simple Table of Affinities and Correspondences

Post by Jo Ann » 04 Nov 2018, 12:13

ok, I think this is the post I want.

are we to use uranus, neptune and pluto and can disregard the air, water and fire elements since they are assigned to these planets now?
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Re: Simple Table of Affinities and Correspondences

Post by Michael Sternbach » 05 Nov 2018, 11:50

Jo Ann wrote:
04 Nov 2018, 12:13
ok, I think this is the post I want.

are we to use uranus, neptune and pluto and can disregard the air, water and fire elements since they are assigned to these planets now?
That depends on your intentions.

Let's say, you wanted to use a GD based deck for a magical ritual that requires representation of the four elements, tjen you would still be using those old correspondences.

But if you wanted to recreate a horoscope chart using the cards, you would be treating them as planets.

Remember that we are talking about various levels of correspondence here. Uranus = Air, Neptune = Water, Pluto = Fire - that's no bad match.

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Re: Simple Table of Affinities and Correspondences

Post by Jo Ann » 05 Nov 2018, 19:21

No, not at all.

I learned the hot dry wet cool correspondences in a chapter different than astrology. She was demonstrating how it worked with court cards and their elements.

I really don't think the astrology thing will stick with me anyway.
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