For you Thothies out there...

Monthly reading circle for Thoth veterans as well as for newbies

Moderator: Michael Sternbach

Forum rules
The Thoth Reading Club will be held monthly. Both newbies as well as experienced Thothies are welcome to join. Sign up is on during the first week of every month. Readings should be posted during the following week. Full feedback is expected by the end of the month. Menbers are encouraged to remind one another by PM if a reading or feedback is overdue; should help be needed, please contact a Mod or Admin. The club guide may specify a specific spread or topic at the beginning of a Reading Circle. Use the Thoth or one of its clones. This is a learning forum, so participants are encouraged to comment on and ask questions in regards to active threads, including those they are not participating in. Club guide may chime in with occasional commentsand suggestions. And here is the most important rule of all: Have fun! :)
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Michael Sternbach
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Re: DDwarks' reading for 2dogs. feedback on Michael's feedback.

Post by Michael Sternbach »

DDwarks wrote:
29 Jul 2017, 03:33
Regarding the 4 of Disks: its interesting that you felt it as "no fun" and I can certainly see it. The issue with *me* calling it this way is that "no fun" is the way my life goes!
I dont recognise it as such. It's normal practice in my world.
Its an interesting argument, one that I must work on in my own life in order to see it as a potential issue in other's.
Isn't it interesting how reading for others sometimes helps us see something about ourselves more clearly?

Just to clarify, I don't always read the 4 of Disks as overly rigid. In the present case however, its being followed by the 6 of Swords (Earth followed by Fire) already suggested that there may be some difficulty with it.

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Re: For you Thothies out there...

Post by Michael Sternbach »

CharlotteKAT wrote:
29 Jul 2017, 03:58
Michael Sternbach wrote:Hi all,

I decided to redd up (as they say in Pennsylvania) this thread a bit by editing some of the titles of the individual posts, so they all have a consistent format now. It goes like this:

Michael question for Nemia
Nemia reading for Michael
Michael feedback for Nemiaa

There are always these three types of post in every reader/sitter interaction.

Further comments on any of the posts, no matter who is making them, should be labelled as in:

Re: Michael feedback for Nemia

(e.g., Nemia commenting back to me), or:

Re: Nemia reading for Michael

(if, let's say, 2dogs comments on Nemia's reading for me), etc.

Everything clear? (It might take some practice.)

Please let's try adhering to this format, it will make the thread much easier to follow, both for us now and future readers.

Thanks!

Your friendly moderator
Hi this sounds sensible but only if using the full site. Titles don't appear on Tapatalk at all, only the text of the post. Might also want to head up the body text with the same headings if we are going to do everything on one thread?

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
Oh boy... That's one of the reasons why I am not a fan of Tapatalk! I respect that others like the app though.

But I feel that introducing the posts with double headings would make things a bit too complicated and could easily be overlooked. But I am open to all your suggestion.

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Re: DDwarks' reading for 2dogs. feedback on Michael's feedback.

Post by DDwarks »

Isn't it interesting how reading for others sometimes helps us see something about ourselves more clearly?

Just to clarify, I don't always read the 4 of Disks as overly rigid. In the present case however, its being followed by the 6 of Swords (Earth followed by Fire) already suggested that there may be some difficulty with it.
Yes it is! Tarot seems to have something to say to the sitter and reader alike.
I understood your interpretation of the 4 of Disks as "personalized" to 2dogs' reading.
Hence why I said "you felt". Those astrological references are still above my reach though! :32(25):
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

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Re: For you Thothies out there...

Post by DDwarks »

Separate threads! Its the tidiest of solution. Then we could just thread-crash them one by one to add our own comments and findings :yarr:
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

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Re: 2dogs feedback for DDwarks

Post by Michael Sternbach »

2dogs wrote:
29 Jul 2017, 01:38
DDwarks wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 17:17
2dogs wrote:
22 Jul 2017, 09:28
How can I make best use of my Thoth deck :?: .
Its Friday and as promised, here's your reading :)
Ive done 3 cards for you. I'm on my phone so it wont be an essay I'm afraid (and relieved!).

What have you done so far: 4 of Disks
A card of stability and structure!
Looks like someone got his head down and got on with analysing and getting to know the ins and out of the Thoth!
You've got the theory right if nothing else so well done. Its no easy task!
The 4 of Disks is Sun in Capricorn. I dont know much about what it means but I'll venture to say that Capricorn, being an Earth sign shows consistency and a solid professional approach to your Thoth studies.

Where you are now? 6 of Wands
Jupiter in Leo.
You've done good and you know you have!
The challenges the Thoth presented have been surmounted through hard work and self belief but as your question hints at, you're wondering about the next step. You want to get to enjoy the Thoth. You need to see the rewards to fully feel satisfied with it all.

What you need to do next. Ace of Cups
The water Signs.
Oh dear!
You've done all the ground work and have been both studious and hard working. You've truly committed yourself to unravel it but somewhere along the lines, you forgot to look at it as a voice rather than a written message.
There's another realm to the Thoth that you havent explored yet. It's an intuitive deck as well as a study deck.
All your knowledge is still only external. Its soul you haven't reached yet.

I hope this has given some interesting insight into your query 2dogs:)
Thank you very much DD. The reading matches up well with my experiences so far:

4 of Disks : I haven't analysed the whole deck or gone into Crowley's theory, but have made a serious effort to look at what the individual cards drawn have been saying by reading about the individual symbols and thinking hard about how their arrangement in the card and its overall composition relate to the question being asked, and I have put the time in to get the answers I'm satisfied with.

6 of Wands: The readings I've done so far have made sense and generally been well received but they have been a struggle and in the main been slow to figure out and write up, not really enjoyable, more a sense of relief when they're done. Which I suppose has led me to buy those DV angel and fairy decks.

Ace of Cups: This rings very true, I get no great feeling or intuition from the Thoth, it just seems to involve vast amounts of esoteric and quite possibly misleading study and I'm not keen on wasting years going down another dead end. I need to anchor myself more in reality such as with my fact cards, but perhaps have a bit of fun and stimulate my dreams with the more fantasy based decks.

So yes this has given me some good insight. I seem to be locked into using the Thoth on here anyway, so will continue with it among my other decks for the time being and see how it goes.
2dogs's query brought up an interesting topic that I would like to comment on, based on my personal experiences.

Yes, the Thoth is chock-full with esoteric symbolism that especially beginners are typically overtaxed with - and reading Crowley's accompanying book usually makes this feeling even worse!

I remember when, some thirty years ago, I first ventured to make an in-depth study of the Book of Thoth. In this endeavor, Crowley's frequent references to other books (mostly his own) were not really more helpful than his brief hints at secret adept knowledge - all of this a time long before the advent of the internet, which is often making at least the first type of information readily available.

Of course, I was intrigued by all this mysterious occult background, but hey, unlike some other Thothies, I couldn't wait to read with the deck!

Now the only Thoth literature besides the BoT that I had access to were two books by Gerd Ziegler, so I used them in conjunction with the BoT. (Yes, I did. Now it's out. :32(34): ) And although I questioned the authenticity of Ziegler's interpretations in some instances, I must admit that I didn't (and still don't) find his books so utterly deplorable like some of the Thothies I met do. More devout Thelemites might consider me a heretic for this - even though I have little doubt that Crowley and Ziegler would have gotten on with each other in more ways than one.

Fact is, Ziegler's books went a long way in allowing me to actually start reading the cards for myself and others (and that's more than many an old Thothie can claim for themselves). I also used them in the encounter groups I was participating in as assistant leader at the time, and may I say, to good effect. Probably not least because Ziegler had been using the Thoth in therapeutic group work too, and his books reflect that.

Now meanwhile we additionally have the books by DuQuette and Smulkin, written specifically for making the BoT more accessible to newbies. Kudos to them! - We also have some more books from the other Thoth school, the one represented by Ziegler and originally founded by the Jungian, anthropologist, and shaman Angeles Arrien, author of "The Tarot Handbook.".

Arrien felt greatly attracted by the Thoth deck, but chose to mostly circumvent the study of Crowley's writings and preferred to take what she saw in the cards at face value, so to speak. However, the worst she ever did was that she downplayed the role of the Great Beast in the creation of this deck and emphasized Lady Frieda Harris's contribution instead - recklessly bringing the eternal wrath of all devout Thelemites on her! (Now Crowley was speaking condescendingly of others all the time, but that doesn't need to concern us here.) In fairness, it must be said that Arrien did mess up certain things, e.g., when she took the pelican on The Empress for a swan. But we should appreciate that she correctly identified the two dolphins on the 2 of Cups as such, even though they arguably look like koi fish.

Anyway, like it or not, here we are today with what we may call the scholastic approach (Crowley, DuQuette, Snuffin, Hughes-Barlow, with some reservations also Banzhaf) versus the intuitive approach (Arrien, Wanless, Ziegler, Tarantino, Fiebig) in regards of the Thoth. As I already confessed, I do find value in the writings of the latter authors as well - especially Tarantino's book Tarot for the New Aeon is quite recommendable.

And personally, whenever I hear that there are two opposite approaches towards something, I figure that the most complete picture might be attained by studying and blending both. But that's just me. :32(21):

Hope some of you struggling with the Thoth find this post helpful.

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Re: Michael's comments

Post by 2dogs »

Michael Sternbach wrote:
29 Jul 2017, 06:19
Anyway, like it or not, here we are today with what we may call the scholastic approach (Crowley, DuQuette, Snuffin, Hughes-Barlow, with some reservations also Banzhaf) versus the intuitive approach (Arrien, Wanless, Ziegler, Tarantino, Fiebig) in regards of the Thoth. As I already confessed, I do find value in the writings of the latter authors as well - especially Tarantino's book Tarot for the New Aeon is quite recommendable.

And personally, whenever I hear that there are two opposite approaches towards something, I figure that the most complete picture might be attained by studying and blending both. But that's just me. :32(21):

Hope some of you struggling with the Thoth find this post helpful.
Ha yes this is very helpful and very similar to what I was thinking today. As DDwarks said I have used logic on the Thoth but not intuition. I think in fact I have in general been alternating between those two things when what I really need to do is combine them, use them both simultaneously (-1 +1). The Thoth deck seems to be somewhere in the middle between the hard facts and scientific logic of my Solar System / Elements cards and the dreamlike fantasy art in the DV decks. Crowley did strike me as having a scientific approach though in addition to his poetic and imaginative side. I used the fact cards with my Thoth reading here for Charlotte - perhaps I should also have referred to my DV decks.
If the Lord Almighty had consulted me before embarking on creation thus, I should have recommended something simpler. Alfonso X (the Wise)

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Re: Michael's comments

Post by Michael Sternbach »

2dogs wrote:
29 Jul 2017, 12:53
Michael Sternbach wrote:
29 Jul 2017, 06:19
Anyway, like it or not, here we are today with what we may call the scholastic approach (Crowley, DuQuette, Snuffin, Hughes-Barlow, with some reservations also Banzhaf) versus the intuitive approach (Arrien, Wanless, Ziegler, Tarantino, Fiebig) in regards of the Thoth. As I already confessed, I do find value in the writings of the latter authors as well - especially Tarantino's book Tarot for the New Aeon is quite recommendable.

And personally, whenever I hear that there are two opposite approaches towards something, I figure that the most complete picture might be attained by studying and blending both. But that's just me. :32(21):

Hope some of you struggling with the Thoth find this post helpful.
Ha yes this is very helpful and very similar to what I was thinking today. As DDwarks said I have used logic on the Thoth but not intuition. I think in fact I have in general been alternating between those two things when what I really need to do is combine them, use them both simultaneously (-1 +1). The Thoth deck seems to be somewhere in the middle between the hard facts and scientific logic of my Solar System / Elements cards and the dreamlike fantasy art in the DV decks. Crowley did strike me as having a scientific approach though in addition to his poetic and imaginative side.
Yes, definitely. Crowley took an interest in the findings of modern science and referred to them again and again in the BoT. In keeping with the slogan on the cover of his periodical The Equinox: "The Method of Science, the Aim of Religion." - Or, as I like to put it: "As mysticism becomes scientific, science becomes mystical."

The Thoth (and AC's writings) are challenging both intellect and intuition. That's without a doubt one of the main reasons I like it so much. But to use this deck to its full potential in divination, I feel you also have to use both of these faculties. This isn't Hello Kitty. :32(17):
I used the fact cards with my Thoth reading here for Charlotte - perhaps I should also have referred to my DV decks.
Well, we wouldn't bell, book, and candle you if you did. But remember that we are here to learn Thoth, and introducing other decks feels a bit like introducing Portugese to an English class. :grin:

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Re: For you Thothies out there...

Post by 2dogs »

I'll try and concentrate on the Thoth then but it's difficult in a universe where everything's connected :32(17): .


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If the Lord Almighty had consulted me before embarking on creation thus, I should have recommended something simpler. Alfonso X (the Wise)

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Re: For you Thothies out there...

Post by Michael Sternbach »

2dogs wrote:
30 Jul 2017, 08:11
I'll try and concentrate on the Thoth then but it's difficult in a universe where everything's connected :32(17): .
Well, we can go a little bit too far with this idea...

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The Internet of Everything

"I told you to pick up milk on the way home. Don't you listen to anything I say!!!"

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Nemia feedback for CharlotteKAT

Post by Nemia »

CharlotteKAT wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 18:08
What is the root of my problems with work and money?
Spread - Adapted from the Money Profile Spread from Barbara Moore's 'Tarot Spreads' book - p105

1**2**3**4

1) Emotional Attitude - your feelings about work and money

Prince of Cups

Such a watery card. The prince is in a chariot pulled by an eagle, flying over the surface of water that also appears to be hit by heavy rain. Behind him are clouds, perhaps clouds of steam. He has a lotus in one hand, and in the other a cup with a serpent. He also has an eagle on his helmet. So also a card of air as well as of water, and a definite sense of energetic conditions around the Prince. This could be an intensely emotional card but the Prince is skimming over the water, and is staring fairly intently at the snake in the cup so i think it's intensity is much less that might initially appear. It would suggest you have potentially quite strong and turbulent feelings about both work and money, but that you keep these in check and deliberately take a more intellectual approach.

2) Intellectual Attitude - your intellectual understanding about work and money - your logical theory if emotion and practical considerations were removed.

Four of Cups - Luxury

The four cups in the card are not equal, as the top two are overfilled but the flow dwindles to the bottom two. This suggests your understanding of money is that it can certainly buy pleasure, but that it shouldn't be wasted because it might not be there for long. Your theory about money is that it doesn't ultimately buy happiness, and also that its source is far from stable. This may be linked to your intellectual attitude towards work also, which is that work may also be here today and gone tomorrow. There is definitely something in the card that describes your attitude that neither work nor money are certain prospects. The 'luxury' title of this card strikes me as having a little irony about it - perhaps signifying how it's easy to splurge only to suffer down the line.

3) Practical Attitude - How you actually use money and go about work in your everyday life.

10 of Disks - Wealth

The disks on this card are arranged into a symmetrical pattern There is meaning and purpose there. It looks as though you are able to use your skills and creative talents to earn money, and practically, you feel obliged to put boith your skills and financial resources you have to good use. From a work perspective, it seems that you have a drive to put your skills and abilities towards making a difference, perhaps making the world a better place, and that you are very focussed on conscious decisions about where you put your energies, and the kind of world you want to create and be a part of.

4) Spiritual Attitude - What do you believe about work and money and the metaphysical laws of the universe regarding money, resources and work.

5 of Swords - Defeat

The colour of this card is a sickly green, and it features an inverted pentagram, suggesting a battering of the will under the weight of material concern. The blades of the swords are bent and damaged, suggesting it's hard for you to think straight about things. From a spiritual point of view, I think you are finding that the dominant themes of work and money are taking up valuable space and energy and that you are perhaps caught up in circular thinking about work and money, and this is impacting on your spirit. Perhaps you also feel the way the laws of money and work operate are loaded against some people, and are not fundamentally fair


I asked for a further card for insight into how to tackle root cause, and pulled the three of wands. This card has a positive aspect, there is a sun-like image behind the wands which are upright, and appear to be flowering. The message here i think is about creating, possibly with others, what you want out of life. You have a lot to offer, if you have confidence in this.

Sorry this is not at all "thothy" i still don't understand a lot of the symbolism in the deck. I also have a really heavy cold so my intuition is swathed in cotton wool. Hope some of it is useful tho.


Charlotte
Thank you! I saw this only now....

Prince of Cups as emotional attitude towards money - I see immaturity, and indeed my attitude is irresponsible and immature. I don't fill in my tax stuff in time, I let my husband deal with everything, I still expect the world to take care of it. I'm totally unwilling to grow up in that area of my life and it's about time to change that. The snake I'm staring at is this whole business of money, earning it, demanding money for my work, dealing with the whole bureaucracy around it. I stare at it, I don't do enough. Stuck in emotional instead of rational attitudes.

My intellectuall attitude is by no means better. Money will be there somehow, like in the 4/Cups, but where does it come from? I'm not living in luxury and don't expect luxury, just the opposite, I don't need much to be happy - but all these Cups show me I'm not willing to deal with the coming and going of money in a rational manner. I expect my cups to be filled, somehow.

My practical attitude, 10/Disks, this is actually what I SHOULD do. Adopt some of my Earth sign pragmatism and make some wealth. But I don't do it because the 5/Swords defeatism. In my heart, I feel I'm not worth it, I have a total blackout concerning money and feel absolutely insecure about what I have to offer the world. This was not always the case, I remember dimly times when I felt appreciated and had a good job and earned money - but the last years with their insecurities have eaten all my self confidence.

The 3/Wands is encouraging, indeed I need now to find new bloom and a new direction. Let's hope I can turn all this chaos around and find more sources of income. This Wands cards gives a definite push.

Thank you for this reading. The cards describe my situation and attitudes quite clearly, and much of what you said rings true. Your conclusions are more tactful than I am with myself :-)

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