Bookworm central

But not politics

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CharlotteK
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Re: Bookworm central

Post by CharlotteK »

I picked up a hardback copy of La Belle Sauvage, Phillip Pullman's new novel today, first in the Book of Dust trilogy, set around 10 years earlier than Northern Lights.

https://www.waterstones.com/book/la-bel ... 0385604413

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Charlie Brown
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Re: Bookworm central

Post by Charlie Brown »

Thanks, Nemia for the meaty, thoughtful response.
Nemia wrote: 11 Nov 2017, 03:25 I don't know how many of them recognized that Hesse himself was interested neither in rebellion nor in changing the world nor in the jazz music and dance his hero indulged in. He sees all that as degrading, a phase his hero goes through to show that the sensual world is part of the human experience - but implicitly, Hesse has no patience for the world of the senses.
That sounds rather similar to the attitudes of many people I know towards Adorno, who I hate more just about anything on the planet. There was also quite an admiration for Thomas Mann in those circles but, honestly, I think that more of an affectation than anything else and I question how much Mann any of them actually read vs. purchased. As for Hesse, I've only read Siddhartha and that was quite some time ago. I have always wanted to read Glass Bead Game, though.
Nemia wrote: 11 Nov 2017, 03:25 was less inspired by idealistic young people taking on the institutions that limit them (the way the late 1960s students wanted), and more by the Christian paradox that the weakest are the strongest.
Let's not forget that quite a lot of "inspiration" came from Wagner's Ring Cycle, too.
Nemia wrote: 11 Nov 2017, 03:25 Again, a point where Tolkien does meet this movement is in the scars he bears - not from a clash with harsh parents and school, like Hesse, but from the trauma of World War I. The anti-war movement could cite Tolkien as a witness to the horrors of war - and yet, Tolkien describes a justified war, and his world view is not pacifist.
I know literally nothing about Tolkein's relationship to WWI, that would interesting to learn about, I imagine. I've just gone and took a gander at the little bit Wikipedia says on the subject. My first notion, based in part on my impression that he's something of an elitist (I know little about him), is that he isn't opposed to war per se just him having to take part in it. Fighting's for the little people and waging is for the underlings. He's got things to do, thank you very much.
Nemia wrote: 11 Nov 2017, 03:25So I think that by pinning Hesse and Tolkien on their banners, the revolutionary, left-wing, sexually liberated students of the hippie movement cherry-picked their heroes' texts to find what suited them, and left away their strong Christian roots, basically conservative outlook and let's not even mention the image of women. Neither Hesse nor Tolkien saw women as equal to men although Tolkien at least had some strong female figures, something completely lacking in Hesse's oeuvre.
You've touched on an interesting analogy to the 60s generation as a whole, I think. At least as far as its U.S. cohort goes. The aggregation of various hippie, yippie, anti-war, free love, sex, drugs, & rock and roll contingents certainly seemed left-wing and revolutionary at the time but ultimately turned out to be anything but. As soon as they weren't personally at risk from the war, they, by and large, embraced individualistic materialism and couldn't vote for Regan fast enough. In hindsight, it's hard to think of a position they took that wasn't to their immediate material advantage. If you agree with this assessment, then I wonder whether or not they were misreading Hesse as much as you may have thought.
Nemia wrote: 11 Nov 2017, 03:25 their female colleagues typed them and made coffee along with it until they had enough.


Please don't mistake what I'm about to say for trying to undercut your point—which I understand and appreciate—but I always make it a point to defend the valor of pre-computer typists. It was a real and valuable skill that people worked very hard to master. My mother could max out at about 110 wpm on a Selectric and that went a long ways to providing for me growing up. And, as a former Barista myself, I will always espouse the dignity of properly made coffee. #JavaJeff'sRIP

In any event, thank you again for taking so much time on a reply. I really appreciated getting to read your comments.
Charlie Brown
—“I’ve developed a new philosophy. I only dread one day at a time.”

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Nemia
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Re: Bookworm central

Post by Nemia »

I don't think there is any Wagnerian influence on Tolkien. Tolkien himself always denied it, and I believe him. Both Wagner and Tolkien were inspired by medieval folk tales and saga (Der Ring der Nibelunge) but used them in totally different ways.

Concerning Mann: of course they read Mann. I think every educated German read Mann (until my generation at least; I don't know anyone who didn't, he's read at schools and he's not difficult to read like Joyce or Proust). Adorno knew Mann personally; Mann pumped his brain for Dr. Faustus and paid Adorno reverence by the famous Wiesengrund simile in one of the Beethoven lectures.

I don't hate Adorno, I dislike the use made of Adorno when I was a student. Adorno was used as axe to fell all kind of trees. Adorno, a melancholic snob, is still in parts interesting, and his knowledge of music and literature was really impressive. I don't think Hesse ever even thought about Adorno. Adorno saw himself as left wing and progressive, Hesse most emphatically didn't.

I think concerning Tolkien and WWI, you're not seeing the whole picture. Tolkien fought in WWI and lost most of his friends there. Since he was an orphan from age 12, his friends were more than just friends, they were his ersatz family and he never got over the loss.

Tolkien saw the war against Nazi Germany when he was already too old to fight as necessary but did so without hating Germans or German culture. His sons fought in the war and I don't think he was as elitist as you think. I don't know what you read but can recommend Tom Shippey on the topic of the "wounded generation", i.e. writers who survived WWI and continued to re-visit it in their works.

And while Hesse was a conservative, he's as far from Reagan's politics as one can be. If you're an American, don't forget that the liberal-conservative scale is totally different in Europe and the USA. The European generation of the student and youth rebellion is now the generation in power or moving slowly out of it; the best representative is probably Joschka Fischer. They made left-wing ideas mainstream. Hesse was completely unconcerned with politics after he went through a very short phase of mild nationalist fervor at the beginning of WWI (just like Thomas Mann did). He rejected the whole idea of politics. Many of his hippie fans embraced politics in order to change the world, something that Hesse had no interest in.

I'm not talking about typists who did a professional jobs in my last remark but about female students. While the male students wrote bombastic texts about equality and revolution, they saw female students simply as helpmates, just as their fathers and professors (against whom they rebelled so strongly) did. Just like men in the French Revolution didn't envision the liberation of women along with the liberation of men. Female students should not have been subalterne to their male colleagues and yet they were seen so.

Who makes the coffee in offices today and cleans the cups? If educated women don't want to do it anymore, women of a lower educational level are hired to do it because men certainly don't do it. In 1968, there was no question that a man doesn't make coffee or type. I know my father never cooked a meal or cleaned a toilet in his life and I'm sure neither Hesse nor Tolkien ever did.

But hey, I'm going off topic now... well, am I? I just read in that biography about Hesse that he saw his wife, an art historian, pretty much as housekeeper. She suffered very much from it and tried to hold on to the shreds of her professional identity that Hesse never really accepted.

For Hesse, Tolkien and Jung, women could never be more than Body, un-creative, passive, receptive, dark soil... none of them ever questioned the gender stereotypes of their time and culture. They're simply too deeply ingrained.

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Charlie Brown
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Re: Bookworm central

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Nemia wrote: 12 Nov 2017, 22:09 Concerning Mann: of course they read Mann.
I was referring to my specific circle of friends.
Charlie Brown
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Charlie Brown
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Re: Bookworm central

Post by Charlie Brown »

Re: Coffee, most offices in the U.S. seem to use pods now, so people are making their own cup to order, or, often, you have to purchase it from a small vendor in the lobby. Providing "free" coffee to employees is an easy cost for some consultant to cut. Before that, in my experience, the custom was that the person who finished the last cup of the pot started the new one. That takes us back to the mid-90s.
Charlie Brown
—“I’ve developed a new philosophy. I only dread one day at a time.”

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Wolfy James
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Re: Bookworm central

Post by Wolfy James »

I got recently, and started reading "Quiet: The power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking" by Susan Cain. I saw an short documentary about Introverts with her and I wanted to get her book. My mother, my brother and I are all introverts, except for my father, who was an extravert, and who made our lives miserable because he view all of us as abnormals and freaks who needed to see a psychologist or psychiatrist. So it's nice to see debunk introverts as NOT being abnormals in this book. For fellow introvert...
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